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	<title>Comments on: Ira David Socol on Teach for America, KIPP Schools, and Reforming Education</title>
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	<link>http://www.openeducation.net/2008/12/11/ira-david-socol-on-teach-for-america-kipp-schools-and-reforming-education/</link>
	<description>Free Education for All</description>
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		<title>By: Kent Clizbe</title>
		<link>http://www.openeducation.net/2008/12/11/ira-david-socol-on-teach-for-america-kipp-schools-and-reforming-education/#comment-10338</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent Clizbe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 18:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.openeducation.net/?p=1028#comment-10338</guid>
		<description>Ira, 

Your views are just a slight (and not new) variation of Marxist anti-reality, anti-humanity pseudo-philosophy. 

&quot;Oppressors&quot; and &quot;oppressed,&quot; class struggle, throwing off the shackles put on you by &quot;the man,&quot; follow me to freedom. Read a little history and your rants will be quite familiar. 

Read a little more history, and you&#039;ll see that when Ira&#039;s kind are in power they institute much more restrictive, punitive, deadly societies than the &quot;oppressive&quot; societies they overthrow. Just in this little essay, it&#039;s crystal clear who/what he approves of, and who/what he dissapproves of. Think Ira would be tolerant of those on his &quot;dissapprove&quot; list? Not likely. His kind are petty dictators. 

If you believe that society does not value your &quot;special qualities&quot; enough, maybe your time would be better spent finding a society that does value you. Why waste your time &quot;changing&quot; a society that has reached the pinnacle of human achievement? America has a balance of the highest levels of justice and achievement--social, technological, economic--as well as opportunity for every citizen. That is, if you are willing to conform to the societal norms. If, however, you expect society to conform to you, it&#039;s very unlikely that you will be able to succeed in America. 

But then, where in the world has anyone ever been able to succeed in any given culture by defying the norms of the culture? 

If your culture requires you to eat peyote and howl at the moon, you will not likely be successful in your culture if you wear a coat and tie and do a SWOT analysis of the seed corn production business. 

Live in the culture, or live in another. Help kids succeed in your chosen culture. When you make kids unhappy with their culture, all you do is create dysfunctional kids.  And sooner or later, you destroy the culture of opportunity that all of Americans are fortunate to have available.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ira, </p>
<p>Your views are just a slight (and not new) variation of Marxist anti-reality, anti-humanity pseudo-philosophy. </p>
<p>&#8220;Oppressors&#8221; and &#8220;oppressed,&#8221; class struggle, throwing off the shackles put on you by &#8220;the man,&#8221; follow me to freedom. Read a little history and your rants will be quite familiar. </p>
<p>Read a little more history, and you&#8217;ll see that when Ira&#8217;s kind are in power they institute much more restrictive, punitive, deadly societies than the &#8220;oppressive&#8221; societies they overthrow. Just in this little essay, it&#8217;s crystal clear who/what he approves of, and who/what he dissapproves of. Think Ira would be tolerant of those on his &#8220;dissapprove&#8221; list? Not likely. His kind are petty dictators. </p>
<p>If you believe that society does not value your &#8220;special qualities&#8221; enough, maybe your time would be better spent finding a society that does value you. Why waste your time &#8220;changing&#8221; a society that has reached the pinnacle of human achievement? America has a balance of the highest levels of justice and achievement&#8211;social, technological, economic&#8211;as well as opportunity for every citizen. That is, if you are willing to conform to the societal norms. If, however, you expect society to conform to you, it&#8217;s very unlikely that you will be able to succeed in America. </p>
<p>But then, where in the world has anyone ever been able to succeed in any given culture by defying the norms of the culture? </p>
<p>If your culture requires you to eat peyote and howl at the moon, you will not likely be successful in your culture if you wear a coat and tie and do a SWOT analysis of the seed corn production business. </p>
<p>Live in the culture, or live in another. Help kids succeed in your chosen culture. When you make kids unhappy with their culture, all you do is create dysfunctional kids.  And sooner or later, you destroy the culture of opportunity that all of Americans are fortunate to have available.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.openeducation.net/2008/12/11/ira-david-socol-on-teach-for-america-kipp-schools-and-reforming-education/#comment-8307</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.openeducation.net/?p=1028#comment-8307</guid>
		<description>this guy is an idiot. Things cannot be holistically good or bad but when you do not acknowledge both sides of an argument you just sound like you are ranting, wanting people to hear, and not doing a rounded due diligence on the issue. 
Thanks a lot, Savonorola.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this guy is an idiot. Things cannot be holistically good or bad but when you do not acknowledge both sides of an argument you just sound like you are ranting, wanting people to hear, and not doing a rounded due diligence on the issue.<br />
Thanks a lot, Savonorola.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Adato</title>
		<link>http://www.openeducation.net/2008/12/11/ira-david-socol-on-teach-for-america-kipp-schools-and-reforming-education/#comment-8306</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Adato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 20:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.openeducation.net/?p=1028#comment-8306</guid>
		<description>Ira, your arguments concerning Teach For America lack insight into the program, and your reasoning behind why we shouldn&#039;t call the skills students from challenged schools have &quot;deficient&quot; is hypocritical.

If you would like to decide whether TFA values education or leadership, first simply google &quot;Teach For America&quot; and see what they say on the first page of their website along with their mission statement.  As a current teacher in the program, I&#039;m well aware of what TFA offers and delivers.  Even though over 60% of corps members stay in education, the goal of the program is to get some of the most promising youth in the country front-line experience in the education system so that they carry the burden of education reform along with them wherever they go.  And even if these first and second year teachers aren&#039;t the best out there (ask any teacher what their experience during their first two years was like), they can still have a massive impact on their students during their time in the program.  I was just at a memorial service for a corps member who passed before his time at age 25, and after three years of teaching, there were around 1,000 people in attendance to honor him.  TFA is a colonialist organization?  Colonialists go out and force their beliefs on people in far-away countries.  The students TFA serves are already here.  If you think that the skills they have are sufficient and should be applauded, show me where in the college and job applications they ask for skills concerning &quot;street survival&quot; and &quot;understanding animals.&quot;  Jean is right, a balance should be met between strength-based learning and &quot;white oppressor&quot; skills, but to completely ignore the fact that zip code has more of an impact on a child&#039;s chances of going to college than anything else is absurd.

Technology and flexibility?  Why should students be encouraged to learn about technology, Ira?  Is it because having skills with technology is necessary for surviving in today&#039;s world?  It is, but so is the ability to read and do simple math.  You&#039;ve simply chosen a different skill set that is needed in order to succeed in the world.  In your ideal world, students are taught how to use Google and email, just like in &quot;TFA land,&quot; students are taught verbal and math skills.  You&#039;re just as &quot;oppressing&quot; as we are.  The difference is that when you actually visit the schools we serve, it&#039;s difficult to have a conversation about technology when some students don&#039;t have running electricity in their homes, but math and reading can still be taught.

Even if everything I&#039;ve said so far is completely wrong, Teach For America is a program which seeks to get those oppressed back on even grounds with their wealthier counterparts.  If those oppressed are happy with the skills they have now, why are we having this conversation?  Why is education reform even a subject of debate?  Perhaps you don&#039;t agree with all of their tactics, as I don&#039;t, but don&#039;t knock Teach For America for having the courage to try to close the achievement gap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ira, your arguments concerning Teach For America lack insight into the program, and your reasoning behind why we shouldn&#8217;t call the skills students from challenged schools have &#8220;deficient&#8221; is hypocritical.</p>
<p>If you would like to decide whether TFA values education or leadership, first simply google &#8220;Teach For America&#8221; and see what they say on the first page of their website along with their mission statement.  As a current teacher in the program, I&#8217;m well aware of what TFA offers and delivers.  Even though over 60% of corps members stay in education, the goal of the program is to get some of the most promising youth in the country front-line experience in the education system so that they carry the burden of education reform along with them wherever they go.  And even if these first and second year teachers aren&#8217;t the best out there (ask any teacher what their experience during their first two years was like), they can still have a massive impact on their students during their time in the program.  I was just at a memorial service for a corps member who passed before his time at age 25, and after three years of teaching, there were around 1,000 people in attendance to honor him.  TFA is a colonialist organization?  Colonialists go out and force their beliefs on people in far-away countries.  The students TFA serves are already here.  If you think that the skills they have are sufficient and should be applauded, show me where in the college and job applications they ask for skills concerning &#8220;street survival&#8221; and &#8220;understanding animals.&#8221;  Jean is right, a balance should be met between strength-based learning and &#8220;white oppressor&#8221; skills, but to completely ignore the fact that zip code has more of an impact on a child&#8217;s chances of going to college than anything else is absurd.</p>
<p>Technology and flexibility?  Why should students be encouraged to learn about technology, Ira?  Is it because having skills with technology is necessary for surviving in today&#8217;s world?  It is, but so is the ability to read and do simple math.  You&#8217;ve simply chosen a different skill set that is needed in order to succeed in the world.  In your ideal world, students are taught how to use Google and email, just like in &#8220;TFA land,&#8221; students are taught verbal and math skills.  You&#8217;re just as &#8220;oppressing&#8221; as we are.  The difference is that when you actually visit the schools we serve, it&#8217;s difficult to have a conversation about technology when some students don&#8217;t have running electricity in their homes, but math and reading can still be taught.</p>
<p>Even if everything I&#8217;ve said so far is completely wrong, Teach For America is a program which seeks to get those oppressed back on even grounds with their wealthier counterparts.  If those oppressed are happy with the skills they have now, why are we having this conversation?  Why is education reform even a subject of debate?  Perhaps you don&#8217;t agree with all of their tactics, as I don&#8217;t, but don&#8217;t knock Teach For America for having the courage to try to close the achievement gap.</p>
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		<title>By: Jean</title>
		<link>http://www.openeducation.net/2008/12/11/ira-david-socol-on-teach-for-america-kipp-schools-and-reforming-education/#comment-6796</link>
		<dc:creator>Jean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 04:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.openeducation.net/?p=1028#comment-6796</guid>
		<description>A lot of what Ira says resonates with me, but he is a bit more radical than I&#039;m comfortable with.  I suspect that he too is prescribing for the entire system what he perceives as having been good for him.  That is: He believes (most?) teachers well teach well only students who learn in the same way the teacher learns--and they do certainly start out doing this.  And this does have a sort of self-replicating effect on the system as a whole.  But much as I too like creativity, flexibility, project-based learning--I seriously doubt that it would work best for everyone any more than the typical linear, direct instruction (teaching as telling) approach works for everyone.  

A second point: Northerner and Ira seem to see some kind of exclusive-or, forced choice between valuing all the strengths that students present to us and building on them, and trying to provide all children with certain skills the absence of which are significant barriers to full participation in our complex world.  I don&#039;t see that these need necessarily be in opposition.  Yes, some choosing and prioritizing has to be done regardign what we have students spend time on--time is limited for all of us--but I think it&#039;s a mistake to think the same choice s should be made for all students everywhere all the time, regardless of circumstances.  Or even that the same principles or priorities need to drive all these choices all the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of what Ira says resonates with me, but he is a bit more radical than I&#8217;m comfortable with.  I suspect that he too is prescribing for the entire system what he perceives as having been good for him.  That is: He believes (most?) teachers well teach well only students who learn in the same way the teacher learns&#8211;and they do certainly start out doing this.  And this does have a sort of self-replicating effect on the system as a whole.  But much as I too like creativity, flexibility, project-based learning&#8211;I seriously doubt that it would work best for everyone any more than the typical linear, direct instruction (teaching as telling) approach works for everyone.  </p>
<p>A second point: Northerner and Ira seem to see some kind of exclusive-or, forced choice between valuing all the strengths that students present to us and building on them, and trying to provide all children with certain skills the absence of which are significant barriers to full participation in our complex world.  I don&#8217;t see that these need necessarily be in opposition.  Yes, some choosing and prioritizing has to be done regardign what we have students spend time on&#8211;time is limited for all of us&#8211;but I think it&#8217;s a mistake to think the same choice s should be made for all students everywhere all the time, regardless of circumstances.  Or even that the same principles or priorities need to drive all these choices all the time.</p>
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		<title>By: ProfBill</title>
		<link>http://www.openeducation.net/2008/12/11/ira-david-socol-on-teach-for-america-kipp-schools-and-reforming-education/#comment-6728</link>
		<dc:creator>ProfBill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:26:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.openeducation.net/?p=1028#comment-6728</guid>
		<description>So, you spend all this time to debunk TFA.  What does that say about you, especially in light of public educators&#039; grand accomplishments for the underserved?  As a minority, I am very encouraged by efforts such as TFA, and can tell that you&#039;re mostly determined to undermine a credible challenge to your status as an educator because the educational industrial complex lags further behind each year and fails to serve children effectively.  Disgust.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, you spend all this time to debunk TFA.  What does that say about you, especially in light of public educators&#8217; grand accomplishments for the underserved?  As a minority, I am very encouraged by efforts such as TFA, and can tell that you&#8217;re mostly determined to undermine a credible challenge to your status as an educator because the educational industrial complex lags further behind each year and fails to serve children effectively.  Disgust.</p>
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		<title>By: v</title>
		<link>http://www.openeducation.net/2008/12/11/ira-david-socol-on-teach-for-america-kipp-schools-and-reforming-education/#comment-6668</link>
		<dc:creator>v</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 01:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.openeducation.net/?p=1028#comment-6668</guid>
		<description>ira is too vague in his description to win over even people of good intentions.  it took me questioning him a lot over at his blog to get a concrete idea of what he is talking about.  he likes to deal in the abstract when most people (including me) need a picture drawn out for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ira is too vague in his description to win over even people of good intentions.  it took me questioning him a lot over at his blog to get a concrete idea of what he is talking about.  he likes to deal in the abstract when most people (including me) need a picture drawn out for them.</p>
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		<title>By: JesseAlred</title>
		<link>http://www.openeducation.net/2008/12/11/ira-david-socol-on-teach-for-america-kipp-schools-and-reforming-education/#comment-6580</link>
		<dc:creator>JesseAlred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 03:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.openeducation.net/?p=1028#comment-6580</guid>
		<description>The architect of KIPP&#039;s expansion is a Houston businessman and &quot;capitalist intellectual&quot; adjunct professor at (White) Rice University, named Leo Linbeck III.  Here are some blog posts he gave through the Belmont Club:


&quot;The Taliban Certainly know, That Obama would sure like to go, So give him a push, Off the ol&#039; Hindu Kush. They promise to send him some blow?&quot; (dated March 7, 2009). &quot;Its start was a home mortage bubble, which triggered some terrible trouble, Then along came Barack, and the rest of his flock, who turned the whole nation to rubble.&quot; (dated March 9, 2009) 
&quot;Your point about needing to repeal the sixteenth amendment is a good one.&quot; (october 27, 2008). &quot;Bush fought a two front war: one front in Iraq; the other in the United States. He won the first and lost the second.&quot; (January 22, 2009). &quot;In my experience, the education reform movement within a city is a tight club. Everyone knows everyone else, and they work closely together.&quot; (october 4, 2008). &quot;But Obama, well he could go places Ayers couldn&#039;t go, win over people Ayers couldn&#039;t work with, champion issues Ayers couldn&#039;t champion. He was a tool.&quot; (october 4, 2008)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The architect of KIPP&#8217;s expansion is a Houston businessman and &#8220;capitalist intellectual&#8221; adjunct professor at (White) Rice University, named Leo Linbeck III.  Here are some blog posts he gave through the Belmont Club:</p>
<p>&#8220;The Taliban Certainly know, That Obama would sure like to go, So give him a push, Off the ol&#8217; Hindu Kush. They promise to send him some blow?&#8221; (dated March 7, 2009). &#8220;Its start was a home mortage bubble, which triggered some terrible trouble, Then along came Barack, and the rest of his flock, who turned the whole nation to rubble.&#8221; (dated March 9, 2009)<br />
&#8220;Your point about needing to repeal the sixteenth amendment is a good one.&#8221; (october 27, 2008). &#8220;Bush fought a two front war: one front in Iraq; the other in the United States. He won the first and lost the second.&#8221; (January 22, 2009). &#8220;In my experience, the education reform movement within a city is a tight club. Everyone knows everyone else, and they work closely together.&#8221; (october 4, 2008). &#8220;But Obama, well he could go places Ayers couldn&#8217;t go, win over people Ayers couldn&#8217;t work with, champion issues Ayers couldn&#8217;t champion. He was a tool.&#8221; (october 4, 2008)</p>
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		<title>By: T$</title>
		<link>http://www.openeducation.net/2008/12/11/ira-david-socol-on-teach-for-america-kipp-schools-and-reforming-education/#comment-6540</link>
		<dc:creator>T$</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.openeducation.net/?p=1028#comment-6540</guid>
		<description>I have tried to read through this blog with an open mind, but I can&#039;t help  siding with Northerner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have tried to read through this blog with an open mind, but I can&#8217;t help  siding with Northerner.</p>
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		<title>By: Northerner</title>
		<link>http://www.openeducation.net/2008/12/11/ira-david-socol-on-teach-for-america-kipp-schools-and-reforming-education/#comment-5774</link>
		<dc:creator>Northerner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 20:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.openeducation.net/?p=1028#comment-5774</guid>
		<description>People like me, we see poor children who don&#039;t know how to read, who can&#039;t put 2 and 2 together, and we say, &quot;Wow, let&#039;s help these kids catch up.  At least let&#039;s try to do that, so that these kids have at least a fleeting chance (rather than zero chance) of joining the modern economy when they grow up.&quot; 

People like you see those poor kids, and say, &quot;My goodness, who am I to say that reading and math are important, and that illiteracy makes anyone &#039;deficient.&#039;  I may know how to read and write, but this poor kid before me is really good at hopping and skipping.  That will serve him well in life, and I&#039;ll utter fake words of praise for his illiterate state.&quot;  

You&#039;re the one who is most truly dedicated to preserving privilege, whether you know it or not.  Under the guise of appreciative (actually, obnoxiously condescending) rhetoric, you are the true oppressor who is working to keep kids from being educated and knowledgeable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People like me, we see poor children who don&#8217;t know how to read, who can&#8217;t put 2 and 2 together, and we say, &#8220;Wow, let&#8217;s help these kids catch up.  At least let&#8217;s try to do that, so that these kids have at least a fleeting chance (rather than zero chance) of joining the modern economy when they grow up.&#8221; </p>
<p>People like you see those poor kids, and say, &#8220;My goodness, who am I to say that reading and math are important, and that illiteracy makes anyone &#8216;deficient.&#8217;  I may know how to read and write, but this poor kid before me is really good at hopping and skipping.  That will serve him well in life, and I&#8217;ll utter fake words of praise for his illiterate state.&#8221;  </p>
<p>You&#8217;re the one who is most truly dedicated to preserving privilege, whether you know it or not.  Under the guise of appreciative (actually, obnoxiously condescending) rhetoric, you are the true oppressor who is working to keep kids from being educated and knowledgeable.</p>
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		<title>By: Ira Socol</title>
		<link>http://www.openeducation.net/2008/12/11/ira-david-socol-on-teach-for-america-kipp-schools-and-reforming-education/#comment-5762</link>
		<dc:creator>Ira Socol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.openeducation.net/?p=1028#comment-5762</guid>
		<description>Ah Northerner, Winston Churchill could not have said it better. &quot;Those&quot; kids don&#039;t come to schools, schools which view knowledge and education in a culturally specific way, with the skills prized by an oppressive elite. The skills they may arrive are not valued. So they are, of course, &quot;deficient.&quot; If you see the education and the world this way - as a colonial project - you will indeed by a KIPP/TFA fan.

Some of us have a different purpose in mind for education. A goal of maximizing human potential, a goal of developing the world in a way which sees everyone as both different and valuable. And we see that every child &quot;arrives&quot; at school &quot;ahead&quot; in some things (might be music, might be alphabetical decoding, might be street survival, might be understanding animals, might be English literature) and &quot;deficient&quot; in others (ability to control one&#039;s own time, ability to judge the flight of kicked soccer ball, ability to communicate effectively and independently with peers).

You want to judge a few of these skills as important - thus labelling most children deficient. I want to judge all these skills as openings or as possible limits, thus finding potential in all children.

Yes, this means that the automatic grants of status now given to rich, white kids might disappear. And yes, your notion guarantees that those &quot;deficient&quot; at age five will never actually be able to catch up.

So you preserve privilege and I might threaten it. If you have status now, I understand why you would want to call me &quot;stupid.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah Northerner, Winston Churchill could not have said it better. &#8220;Those&#8221; kids don&#8217;t come to schools, schools which view knowledge and education in a culturally specific way, with the skills prized by an oppressive elite. The skills they may arrive are not valued. So they are, of course, &#8220;deficient.&#8221; If you see the education and the world this way &#8211; as a colonial project &#8211; you will indeed by a KIPP/TFA fan.</p>
<p>Some of us have a different purpose in mind for education. A goal of maximizing human potential, a goal of developing the world in a way which sees everyone as both different and valuable. And we see that every child &#8220;arrives&#8221; at school &#8220;ahead&#8221; in some things (might be music, might be alphabetical decoding, might be street survival, might be understanding animals, might be English literature) and &#8220;deficient&#8221; in others (ability to control one&#8217;s own time, ability to judge the flight of kicked soccer ball, ability to communicate effectively and independently with peers).</p>
<p>You want to judge a few of these skills as important &#8211; thus labelling most children deficient. I want to judge all these skills as openings or as possible limits, thus finding potential in all children.</p>
<p>Yes, this means that the automatic grants of status now given to rich, white kids might disappear. And yes, your notion guarantees that those &#8220;deficient&#8221; at age five will never actually be able to catch up.</p>
<p>So you preserve privilege and I might threaten it. If you have status now, I understand why you would want to call me &#8220;stupid.&#8221;</p>
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